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tbh i think people find them hard to understand because they are if you don't know the technical details. things can probably be explained in a way that the average twitterite could understand, but the majority of people who would need that explanation probably don't even want to know...

like realistically in the avg setting (certainly a lot of corp settings), a user needing to talk to their sysadmin means the sysadmin hasn't done their job well
@natalie :bellsystem: I'm not saying that talking to your sysadmin would instantly make everything trivial to understand, but having some connection to a person with expertise in the field is a valuable resource, and people seem to have trouble finding those.

Also, the mentality of sysadmins being invisible entities who just control the servers and never talk to their users unless something's wrong is exactly the problem I was trying to point out in my post.
@natalie :bellsystem: We're social creatures, our strongest asset is community! Segregating "the techies" from "the users", either to place them on a pedestal, or treat them as your butler, is counterproductive to that, and blocks off the collaboration and achievement that is possible when people share knowledge and work together as equals.

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@natalie "means the sysadmin hasn't done their job well" or doesn't have enough time (e.g. understaffed, not enough time to properly manage anything, just reactive responses thus...)
Indeed.

For me at least, becoming a SysOp was something which I was initiated into by other SysOps.

It wasn't really a career path? I was a teenager who showed promise basically.

I was given a 1200 baud modem and told to choose a handle.

Perhaps, it is still that way with SysOps.

Perhaps, we lost something with Sysadmins?

We unequivocally lost something with DevOps. Can you *imagine* giving someone ops/administrative/wheel/sudo/enable/etc. privileged access who isn't already a dev?

@EsperantoStar i don't know if sysadmins are still a thing. I could *definitely* code before I was a paid sysadmin.

I was a proficient coder on systems which didn't even have user abstractions, memory protection, modems nor Ethernet, no TCP/IP stacks, long before anyone gave me SysOp privileges.

I was a (co)SysOp on several BBSes before I was ever given a shell account with access to root privileges.

So, yeah, IMHO, the Dev in DevOps is insultingly redundant.
@EsperantoStar Similarly, I had been root on many systems before I was ever given Administrator or Enterprise Admin privileges.

Admittedly, Windows didn't even have a concept of users, let alone privileged users when I first used it.

I used C/PM & MS-DOS & DR-DOS before Windows existed.

I had been root/admin/etc. on many networks before I had enable access on switches & routers & firewalls & VPNs, etc.

There is a progression of privileges, & each one comes with more responsibility.
@EsperantoStar unfortunately, at least in my experience:

More responsibility does not come with a better quality of life nor better compensation.

I have worked many jobs where I was on call 24x7 for years.

Doing the math? Even $130,000/year salary (my record highest pay scale) divides to $15/hour. ;-/

I've slept at no fewer than five separate employer's offices.

Treated like it.sh while enabling CxOs who couldn't do my job if they had a gun pointed at their heads.

Enabling evil. ;(
@EsperantoStar so, currently?

I am still burnt out.

Still seeking employment with a dynamic of "right relations" so I don't incur more karmic debt.

I'm still in normal debt.

Still sleeping in a car and homeless.

I still code too.

But I think how others have treated me is pretty horrible.

Society seems irredeemable.
@EsperantoStar as far as "wasting time"?

I dunno.

If you are getting paid as a sysadmin, even if you are wasting time, there are probably worse careers?

If you can't code as a sysadmin, that confuses me. I guess Windows and Macs have lots of GUI tools and maybe don't require programming? I can't imagine using a computer without coding.

Or well I can: mobile devices (e.g. Android, iOS) which require "real" systems to write software for them.

I HATE that. I don't have sufficient words.
On birdsite I wondered: What if I kept telling users that M. has approachable admins? Would they switch? I've already put my M. address in my birdsite bio, and M. logo as my avatar.

Or end up like email w most users on large sites. But at least they would compete, and small servers.

Also ppl over there are starstruck w Tribel. Its corporate like birdsite & gaining PYTs showing their selfies. Imagine all the serious ppl flock there and then Republican billionaire buys that, too!

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@Jes

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@Jes

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> god-like beings, impossible for mere Users to communicate with directly.

This is a joke we do in our company to the big services we use (infraestructure), even when we are SysAdmins too.

I agree point by point with what you say and I think I can add some info.

I see some kind of culture in that replication, and a pattern that consist in which just a little circle, every time more unknown, is the one able to manage the servers, and you cannot speak with them.

Some include that while speaking to "scaling up" to provide more services, and it is really sad.

Do you know what I would like? Being co-admin with a friend or even accepting suggestion, requests or things by the community.

Maybe I am a bit egoist here because I have interest in help and participating with other people.
@EchedeyLR Exactly! It seems that sort of environment is common among small little pubnixes and the like, but those are heavily skewed towards computer nerds, lol. I think that should be more widespread!
First, *meows at punks*
Second, I didn't understand the term "pubnixes". is like some sort of word created between "pub" as in "bar/club" and "niche"?
@EchedeyLR it's short for Public *nix, as in a Unix/Linux box people can get an account on and have SSH access to. They usually also come with stuff like e-mail and tilde-dir Web hosting
I was going to ask if it was like Tilde and then I read that you wrote it there jajajajaja
> It's often at least partially motivated by people wanting to make themselves feel important & powerful, but that's another story.

oof. i feel that. probably have done that myself.

i think part of it is also a fear that if you don't give off that GFAM vibe, people won't take whatever service you're running seriously and treat it like a toy rather than a tool. or like a second rate toy if it is supposed to be a toy. ;)
The other side of this, as someone who used to run various servers for strangers on the Internet, is that people seem to demand your time to fix their issues. Being an admin means having to take shit from everyone if anything doesn't work the way they want. Even if you announce planned maintenance months ahead, many users will still shit on you for being down for 5 minutes. Hosting stuff for others just isn't as fun anymore, and at some point many admins will start to try and remain "short and professional", so there's the least amount of shit they can get over it.
@tyil yeah, agreed. when sysadmins are nameless, invisible Computer Gods, instead of people doing this stuff for fun, users demand unrealistic perfection from them.
@tyil
I love the fediverse! My first serious computer experiences were on BBS'es and Fidonet, and, through friends, that network between universities.
The fediverse gives me exactly that feeling of meaningful connection! 🥰
I think Google and the big social media sites were such a force behind this. it felt like the expectation of "if i have an issue with a service i can have a conversation with the people running the service" was smashed out of people's consciousness completely
I've also seen the converse of this: people who distrust the fediverse because the people who run instances on it have faces and personalities.

The idea of a faceless organisation exploiting them is nebulous. The idea of a human being breaking their trust is tangible.
@BlurTheFur As someone who works for large corporate business that does SysAdmin work all day, everyday… We are never thanked or recognized while things are moving smoothly… we only get recognition when something breaks down, and we pull double duty to fix it… but the day to day keeping it all running is “expected”
I feel the same way but not as a sys admin but as a developer... I'm working in a small company who is doing cloud hosting, we own a datacenter, as a dev. My company have been by a big eu company and in all the companies of the group we are the **only one** who have developers inside. All the others pay other company for their needs... The mother company don't understand that, our colleagues clearly prefer this. I don't know, feel nicer when you can know more personally the tech support.
If we want decentralization to mean more freedom, it can't be reduced a tech question, it's also a political attitude, even a state of mind. Good insights on this thread :
@david i talked to someone else about how i felt about how you moderate this place, and tbh i couldn't agree more with it, i believe you're doing an amazing job here helping us realise you're a person as an admin, to us :QueerCatHeart_Enby:
I might be by technicality a sysadmin but i am first and foremost a techie and secondly I happen to love coffee so please come over with some tim hortons or something. #🤔